Salon Weekly
~ In 4 Color Coded Sections:
- Table Notes
- Announcements (this week sent out separately yesterday)
- Articles
- Books, Reviews, Magazines
A Weekly Email Publication of The Lloyd House
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Growing out of the Monday Night Salon
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Section One: Table Notes
At the Table on Monday, 1/30/06: Jem Moore,ShariAble, Nancy Dawley, Dan Hershey, Mr. G. , Mira Rodwan / Redwing, ChadBenjaminPotter, Gerry Kraus, Kerry Conte, Bill Messer, Janet Kalven, Paul Saas, Janice Trytten,VlastaMolak, Alan Bern, Ellen Bierhorst, Marvin Kraus, Mike Murphy, DaisyQuarm,Neil Anderson, Judy Cirillo, Steve Sunderland, Scott , Jay Staples, (Welcome Jem, Paul, Janice and Jay!)
Notes taken by ellen. Asyoucan surely imagine, this is hardly an accurate transcription, but includesmanyomissions and rephrasing. I hope that it gives you, the reader, a generalimpressionof our conversation. One conspicuous omission is worth notice: I rarelygo to the trouble of recording quips and jokes, of which thereare many asours is a most jolly table! e.b.
So...These notes have not been proofed by the speakers and may not be accurate.
Topics Nominated and:
Announcements:
Daisy: We are inviting to the Salon Don Rucksnagle MD, Children's hosp, single payer health care initiative. Feb 13.
RayMcGovern, CIA analyst opposed to Iraq war, will be a guest speaker atHowarTolle¹s class, this Friday Feb 3, 12- 1; 301 Bronstein Hall, (Old physicsbuildg)U.C.
(see www.uc.edu and search for m ap)
Dan:looking forvolunteers 50 and older for a longitudinal study of people¹smetabolism, b.p.,heart rate. Daily calorie needs, fitness. Thrust is tostudy longevity. Prediction of longevity. contact daniel.hershey@uc.edu
Vlasta: volunteers who want to lose weight to help me rake leaves. I will feed you, give hot tub use. 521 9321 DrMolak@gmail.com
Mira: Janice Trytten¹s beautiful CDs. featuring her performance of Native flute. $15
TOPIC: Self Censorship at the salon and the possibility of government snooping
Discussion:
Ellen: (I led off by a brief presentation of the topic. I quoted Lainie¹swonderfulemail responding to our discussion on this topic from last Monday. She isan ³invisible salonista², a person who regularly reads our notesand enjoysthem a lot. Look for the text of her message below in the Articles(blue)section. Her letter confirmed my impression that for a fair numberof our560 subscribers to the Weekly, our table notes firm their own thinking,bringthem comfort and stimulation. Some have even told me they feel assuredofknowing what is ³going on² in the city and the world (!) by reading theWeekly . I hardly feel this is warranted, and certainly we make no claim to be inclusive.
However, it does seem that our conversations and our sharing of themwithyou, the readers has a certain importance. We are, after all, lovingidealists. We believe in the self government of a sovereign people. Welove our countryand the ideals on which our government was founded. Finally,we feel kinshipwith all people, grief and responsibility over human sufferingwherever itis found, and a reverent stewardship of this beautiful earth.
It ismy belief that the salon idea is greatly more important than the40 or soof us who circulate through the dining room, in weekly batches of15 or 20,or the 550 or so of us who subscribe to the Weekly, allby their ownrequest. In this era of mass media and personal isolation,of alienationand the breakdown of community, the Salon is a recreation ofcircles of trustand shared information, shared wisdom. It is phenomenalhow the group mindof a circle of ordinary people can develop quite an extraordinaryintelligence.
So I like including our names at the table in thesenotes, and puttingin as much of what we actually say as I can manage onJulie¹s laptop computer(thanks, Julie). I have been confirmed in my beliefthat it makes the Weeklysignificantly more lively and interesting, henceattracting readership.
And I don¹t like succumbing to fear. This is America, after all. Have we a Constitution or not, for heaven¹s sake!?
And yet, I cannot blow off the realization that a National Security Administrationcanand probably does sein the Internet for certain words in certain combinationsinorder to come up with ³seditious² groups and communications. I hearthatduring the Alito confirmation hearings one of the witnesses was an ordinarycitizenwho reported that his little civic group had been infiltrated anddisruptedby an agent, a ³plant². Legion are those who believe that thecurrent administrationwould and does have no scruples at using its PatriotAct powers to disarmany group opposed to the power of the Republican party.
I don¹t mindsacrificing myself for the cause of the Constitutionof the United States,but I sure as hell don¹t want to do it without a clearstrategy and at leasta chance of it making a difference. In the sixtiesI worked to publish thebi-weekly The Independent Eye because I couldnot stand the unjustwar our country was perpetrating on the Vietnamese people,and I was wiretappedand a file on me was accumulated in Washington. SoI have personal experiencethat Big Brother is real.
How then dowe reconcile our need to protectourselves and our group from predation bya misguided government without sacrificingthe usefulness of our publication? (As the reader will surmise, theseremarks are greatly elaborated today,Saturday, from the brief introductionmade at the Salon on Monday. ellen.)
Vlasta:.... Second,there is an African Amer. congressman,Chas. Rangle, ³the greatest thing aboutbush¹s pres. is that he has foreverdispelled the notion of white supremacy.²
Shari:Iwas stunnedby the amount of fear I heard here last week. McCarthy was lookingfor peoplewho were conspiring to overthrow the gov¹t. So for us to be afraidof thatnow... I know Ashcroft, Bush want to censor people, but the constitution....ifEllen says ³being in bed with Osama bin Laden², that¹s still not conspiringtooverthrow the gov¹t. We are just shooting our mouth off. (That¹s nota dangerto the government.)
(let¹s not) throw away our opinion, fear to open our mouth.
Alan:upuntil a certain point this was a private speaking situation here at thetable. I could judge how open to be given how much trust I felt with thosewho werein the room. But when it is transcribed and printed on the internetit becomespublic speaking. I have been seriously hurt (elsewhere) by peopletakingmy words out of context and abusing them.
One alternative is for me to be much more careful here, and only say as much as I would say at a public forum.
Then I would miss the cozy wonderful intimate atmosphere I have felt here.
Probably the way to go is for us to realize this is a public speaking situation and be careful.
I always make it a condition of an interview (with the media) that I can read and edit the transcript before publication. (Alanisa public person as the artistic director and member of ³Brave Old World²,newJewish music ensemble that has received considerable public attention,especiallyin Europe. As such has been interviewed and criticized in thepress. ellen.)
I wish I believed what Shari said, but I think it is naive.
Alito may become the new justice ... don¹t underestimate the drive of this gov¹t to persecute political opponents.
There are things you can say that are safe to say and others not.
I would not have said, as someone at this table just did, even in jest, ³would you like to conspire with me...²
I know this is like a victory of fear. But I don¹t think jokes are protected by the constitution (joke).
Steve:good points. my pref. is that this is a rare group in Cincinnati, precioustome, precious to my thinking, and I have dedicated myself to coming andbeingopen hearted and open minded as I can, without fear. This is an importantgroup. An opportunity for people of all generations to come tog. and celebrateourcitizenship. One of the extraord. experiences of this city. So I wouldlikemy name to be included. Sure, I can get myself afraid. At the sametimeI don¹t want anyone else to risk anything they don¹t want ... I honoranyonewho wants to say, ³don¹t use my name.²
The stenography that Ellen now does has come after I joined the group initially.
So... the group needs to be free for anyone to speak freely, candidly.
And... reconsider whether we want the transcription to be published.
I don¹t need the publication. I do need the group.
Bill:I agree entirely with Steve. but also with Ellen when she says no censorshipwithinthe room. that¹s the vitality (of our group...that we can speak freelyhere).
Also being the stenographer crimps Ellen¹s ability to speak (which is regrettable).
I travel a lot ... miss a lot... nice to be able to read the notes and learn what I have missed. That is helpful.
Might it not be possible to have these notes as an attachment that comes with a password?.
Jem: you could do that on a website but once it is copied and pasted, your control is gone.
Bill: I would never underestimate the power of this government to exceed its authority.
Mira:re.the threat to the US gov¹t. the people who are running the gov¹t arethegreatest threat. There are three branches to the gov¹t, and then thereisthe ³trunk², that¹s us. The people.
Jem: an email can¹t be encrypted but a website can. Passwords.
Weare not being censored by the gov¹t yet. They don¹t have to censor ustolisten to us. They have put infiltrators in groups exactly like thisin CA.
... on ³this Amer. Life² (radio program every Sat pm and Sun am... Richard Blumberg¹s son Alex Blumberg is a co-chief of the program)agentleman with an Arabic name, a reporter, under suspicion of stalkingChenney. They came down on him, local cops, FBI, within 2 hours he foundhimself in a safe room under interrogation. Nothing happened to him. Sowe stilldo live in the US.
Janice: we just saw ³Good nightand GoodLuck². Such horrific courage to fight that. Should encourage usnot to allowthings to get to that point.
Daisy: there areother issues besideswhat the gov¹t will do with this info. Someone (lastyear at the table) askedme what my dau. thought of a certain issue, butthen I had to run out to Ellenand say, ³Don¹t publish what I said.² Anothertime Hal and I were talkinghere about racism ... Ellen¹s notes don¹t alwaysget the whole tone. I amwilling to take heat for what I actually say, butnot for something slightlydifferent from what I meant. I come here in spurts. I really enjoy readingthe transcript very much. I like it being there. On the other hand... my first choice would be not to have it, but instead a summary overview.
Ithinkit would be good to put a disclaimer before the notes: ³This has notbeenscrutinized by the speakers and may not be accurate.²
Also give people a chance to use a pseudonym.
I have a job with lots of job security, but others don¹t. ....
MikeLast week I said ³We should say not less but more.² I honor what Alan,Daisy,Steve have said. But I think we should explore why we want to questionwhatthis ³truce² is. (ref. to last week¹s discussion about bin Laden. e.b.)Ifwe want to be good citizens here, we need to remember the people are sovereignhere. Geo. is merely a servant. If we are going to advise them, we mustinformourselves. Not to toss off remarks, but speak carefully. Be responsible.
Gerry Every Monday we read the preamble... Granny D isquoted. The first sentence, ³Let us not be led by people... from fear.² And herewe are discussing whether we should be led by fear. I think itis sad. Ihave been a member of the salon since it started. In the beginningwe didnot have the laptop notes.
Janet: the value ofthis groupis that people speak freely. My long experience is that you onlyget goodideas when people speak freely. I don¹t think we should be so nervousaboutwhat we say. I don¹t want to live in fear or contribute to an atmosphereoffear.
Mr. G.: being one of the perpetrators of thisissue. ... report the change in my feelings. I didn¹t bring up this issueout offear. If I was going to be afraid I wouldn¹t have come back. ButI knowI am sometimes stupid, ... foolhardiness. Sometimes prudence is good,butit always has costs. I am weighing this all now. Similar to Daisy ...moreis going on here in additional to political thoughts. ... We have ourownsense of our own personal risk, and there is the reality of our risk.
...I feel safe here. But internet can be an ugly place; illusionof freedom,but it is not really free. When I realized about the broadeningconcentriccircles things, I thought , ³Who am I talking to?² Part of medoesn¹t wantto give up the outreach part of this.
Would like to figure out a way to keep the outreach. (i.e. the transcript in the Weekly.)
I don¹t believe the password ideas is viable.
Some of the people reading this will never be contributors and I don¹t like being on show for them.
What do you think about reporting the dialog but not put in names?. Maybe just initials. Maybe gender.
We have fans already.
Iagree that like Daisy says, the nuances are lost. I¹d want the narrativetobe accurate as it can be, as long as we are not identifiable.
Jay:Being a first timer I intended just to listen but wanted to comment on AlanandSteve¹s points. Don¹t think it is giving into fear ... I feel thisis anillegitimate, terrorist administration. I saw the sec¹y of homelandsecuritysay ³Isn¹t it silly we can prosecute drug dealers but not terrorists.² Domesticspying is not a good idea. Can we trust these bullies to onlyuse their toolsagainst terrorists? I say No, they will use them to punishtheir politicalopponents. ... We need to understand we should not say ³conspire...²if theminutes go out into email.
Dan I see this a littledifferentlyand maybe it is extreme. We gather... interesting, dedicated,smart people. We speak to each other. And also we speak beyond here. ...the other audiencewhich is beyond here. I feel what we say is an importantmessage beyond here. I am in favor of letting it all hang out, and takethe risk, take the chance. ...
Vaqslev (sp?) Havel, Czechoslovakia, when faced with a totalitarianregime, he wrote plays and stories. Endedin jail three times. Not killed,miraculously. True to his feelings, willingto take the risk.
Also met the Samisdat writers. It had been very important during the Soviet regime.
We have an audience beyond here ... and if the mayor gets to read it sometimes as well, that¹s good too.
... The definition of old age is you don¹t give a damn what people think, you do it anyway.
Nancy the first time I saw my comments in print I was surprised. Then I got used to it, ... not so bad. I think it is more important for people to be able to speak freely here than it is to publish the notes on the internet.
(those who have not spoken given priority by our hogreve for the evening, who was Marvin. Thanks, Marvin. Great job.)
Scottcensorship is an important issue to me as an artist who has been censoredmanytimes. Want to speak to the issue of informed consent: people need to know that they are being recorded in this way. I like the idea of using an ²email handle² rather than real name.
JudyIsee both sides to the issue. I do remember the McCarthy era. A scarytime. My parents were very frightened. An Uncle wouldn¹t even let his girlsjointhe girl scouts. But like Janet, I don¹t want to live a life of fear....I am coming to the conclusion we should just use initials or something.
Marvin Passwords connote that you have something to hide. I kind of live in thisstrange world where I don¹t have anything to hide.So if you say whateveryou want to say and not have this feeling that youhave something to hide... no matter who may be overhearing you or readingyour mind, it¹s a loteasier to deal with it, knowing that you are not hidinganything. This iswho I am. There it is. I am living in the US of A. Ify ou don¹t like that,one of us is living in the wrong place. Time willtell.
There seemsto be around the table the idea that the olderpeople don¹t give a damn. Maybe when you younger people get older you willbe freer to do what you want.
Alan: lots of reactions. the bottom line ... I will speak freely if I can have a pseudonym and we can talk about revisability or not.We have two models here that we are using. One is like a support or therapygroup,and the other is a town hall meeting. If it were a psychotherapygroup youwould never publish it.
Several times I have said here things that make me as vulnerable as are members of a therapy group.
Wetalk about racism, anti Semites, sexism ... I like to talk about thosethingswith people I trust. I would not agree to go to a support group wheretheleader said, ³And by the way, everything you say will be published ontheinternet.²
This government should be feared.
People disappear. Kept in a tiger cage for three years.
This is happening to real people around the world today.
(Things today are) way worse than during the McCarthy era. They weren¹t disappearing people and claiming the right to do so.
The political action side of what we are doing here. My understanding from the training I have had ... you want to be intelligent about political interventions and actions.You think clearly and intelligently about the best way. You don¹t showallthe cards in your hand. You decide what cards to show and when and how.
I appreciate and love the transparency we have here and I love thatotherssee this as a model. But to the extent that we might say things (threateningnotto the Constitution but to the regime in power e.b.. )... we need to think strategically about that.
Vlasta: .... we should have the option of turning Ellen off.
Ellen: certainly!I¹ll just put ³...² when something is deleted, either because I failed tocatchit all, or because the speaker wanted it omitted from the publishedrecord
Mike I think the notes are wonderful. And thanksAlan for pointing out the twomodels. If we think about the constitutionand only say what is constitutional. Lincoln said we have the right to amendor to overthrow the constitution. ... I think we should say more, spellout what you mean.
Using the politicalmodel. This country was foundedon talk. Talk has been the foundation. We are a sovereign people; not aking who is sovereign over us. Be carefultherefore to say things that takethe high road.
We need to give our government the guidance of our wisdom.
Bill I think there is a third model. Corporate board meetings with minutes taken.
This conversation is between how I would speak in a radio broadcast andhowI would speak in a personal diary. I would speak very differently inthosetwo situations. People spoke about how they felt to see their wordsin print. Ellen, I don¹t think you answered the question as to why you liketo publish. A sense that this is important and needs to be broadcast. Maybeit does,maybe not.
Whatever we have to do to make the greatest ease and freedom of expression in this room.
I don¹t accept that as you get older you get freer.
I have spoken out on many occasions over the years...
Thurgood Marshal had a good quote, Œthe solution to bad speech is not censorship but is more speech.²
SteveIdon¹t accept either of Alan¹s models. Not a therapy nor a political group.We come, meet, eat, fellowship. Enjoy ourselves. I like the sillinessaswell as the seriousness. I don¹t want to take the group so seriouslythatI have to watch my language. That would be the death of the group. Whenwe shift to edited or safe communication we become something I don¹twantto give my time to.
For me, want to just let ideas flow out, listentothe responses. I don¹t want to watch myself in this group. Part of theexcitementof this group is to allow silliness, or argument, or nonsense. And when I hear ³I want a code name² and similar safeguards, I sense the death of this group.... The passion and spirit of this group is in its welcoming of all ideas,ideasthat don¹t hurt other people. That has been an ongoing commandment.
More in the room is Tich nat Hahn, Dalai Lama, Lenny Bruce. ... nota politicalorganization. If you want a political organization we coulddo that. Weworked on Gerry¹s campaign, Kerry¹s , and failed. ...
I worked inan (Student political ) organization in the 60¹s that wastaken over by theCIA. It was the death of the student movement.
Whatis Americanand worldly and special about this group is that we come withopen hearts,open minds. Anything that protects that, let¹s do it. Anythingthat castsa shadow over it, let¹s not do.
Jay It seemsto me the keyhere is the vitality of the conversation and the freedom ofexchange. I¹drather have a good idea and not have it heard ( on the internet in the Weekly. e.b.) thanbebroadcast widely with nothing to say. So if it helps the vitality, wecouldhave ³off the record² portions indicated with parentheses.
...legitimatequestion whether this Administration isn¹t trying to have anyform of oppositionto the Republican party made illegal .
Dan What I see goingon here is negotiation. Every week ideas are put out, altered, changed,andit is an organic thing that produces an interesting result.
Chad Benjforthe record, young people don¹t give a damn as well. (about being censored...aresponse to Marvin¹s comment about old people. e.b.)
Gerry Been sitting here listening to everybody. It never occurred to me it might be a therapeutic session, I come here because it is fun.I have been misquoted and quoted correctly in the notes with the consequencesofsome people(in City Hall) being angry at me. ... you can speak up andsurvive.
...at the Lloyd House Salon, I would like it to continue just the way it is. If people feel inhibited, that¹s there problem.
Marvin my point, if you don¹t have anything to hide, what could you be tortured for? ...
AlanI think I read the situation differently from many people here. It mighthaveto do with living in Germany these many years and thinking about whathappenedin the Nazi era. They Thought They Were Free, a book about how in the 30¹s Germans sat around having conversations like this, ³It¹s not too bad, yet.²
For white, privileged people it may have meant freedom... but now that is changing. The trap doors seem to be closing.
I support the spirit of free speech here. I like the ...
Whatthe government is intending for people they think support terrorism.I havefriends who are body searched every time they fly because they areunion organizers.
(jokes, laughter)
It is neither a political group nor a therapy group and I love that, it is both.
Justto make the point really clear, suppose I were to adopt the pseudonym³Osama²for myself for the publication of the salon notes. Would everyonefeel perfectlycomfortable with that?
Someone: That would be stupid, you¹d just be asking for trouble!
Bill:That¹sthe point - if the principle is free speech, then it¹s ok to callyourselfOsama, otherwise the principle is just what you personally feelcomfortablewith.
(Ellen¹s P.S. on Saturday: I will continueto publish extensivenotes of the table conversation in the Weekly emailmagazine, but will inserta disclaimer at the beginning of the Table Notesnotifying the reader thattheir accuracy is dubious at best and should notbe taken as an accurate expressionof the views of the speakers. Further,anyone who wants can have their namereplaced by any moniker they desire. Anyone who wants, may certainly proofthe notes before publication, usuallyon Saturdays in the afternoon. Deleteanything they want. Further, we willinsert a sentence in the Preamble readeach Monday stating that the noteswill be taken during the conversation andpublished in the Weekly which iswidely distributed, and inviting any speakerto have the transcription interruptedduring his/her sharing. )
PPS: I am confined to bed with the flu, and so can only publish these table notes this week. The full Weekly,withAnnouncements, Articles, and Book notes will, I hope resume with nextSaturday¹srendition. Until then, stay warm, be happy, and think about comingto thepot luck on Monday.
Hugs to all,
Ellen
Section Two: Announcements
Section Three: Articles
Section Four: Books, Reviews, Magazines
The Lloyd House Salon (usually about 15 people) Meets Mondays at 5:45,
EVERY MONDAY, 52 WEEKS/YEAR come hell or high water, as my mother used to say.
We of the Lloyd House Salon gather in a spirit of
respect, sympathy and compassion for one another
in order to exchange ideas for our mutual pleasure and enlightenment.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Our Salon blog is a promising interactive site: http:lloydhouse.blogspot.com
Interactive Yahoo Salon group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LloydHouseSalon
We have 45 members as of 7/05.
For Pot Luck procedures including food suggestions, mission and history visit
http://home.fuse.net/ellenbierhorst/Potluck.html .
You are invited also to visit the Lloyd House website: http://www.lloydhouse.com
> To unsubscribe from the Lloyd House Potluck Salon list, send a REPLY message
> to me and in the SUBJECT line type in "unsub potluck #". In the place of #
> type in the numeral that follows the subject line of my Weekly email. It
> will be 1,2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. This tells me which sub-list your name is on so I can
> delete it. Thanks! ellen bierhorst
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